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	<title>Comments for Econstudentlog</title>
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		<title>Comment on Moral event horizons by Miao</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/moral-event-horizons/#comment-6288</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 15:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12186#comment-6288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes. Supply and demand matters.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes. Supply and demand matters.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Moral event horizons by US</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/moral-event-horizons/#comment-6287</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[US]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 15:46:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12186#comment-6287</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As we&#039;ve touched upon before it makes sense that it&#039;d be optimal for you to be more selective than me - being a young woman and all that. Fewer people would want to voluntarily spend time with me than you so I can&#039;t really afford to be as picky as you are. You have the ability to reject quite a few people &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; still meet your social needs - this is a good thing. And the fact that you reject some people is a signal that you&#039;re optimizing; some people are more interesting than others and you act accordingly. 

We tend to have reasonably similar preferences regarding how we spend our off-hours, and so of course if people I happen to interact with aren&#039;t actually any good at analytical thinking I&#039;m unlikely to find social interaction with them very rewarding - but I don&#039;t really feel like I need to risk rejecting people early on by probing a proxy (for critical thinking skills), as literally nobody ever approaches me first in the social game. Before one&#039;s basic social needs are actually met I do not believe one is doing oneself any favours rejecting people. (Granted just figuring out what your social needs are can sometimes be a challenge - I know that for me it&#039;s very easy to get used to a &lt;em&gt;very low&lt;/em&gt; level of social interaction with others.)
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As we&#8217;ve touched upon before it makes sense that it&#8217;d be optimal for you to be more selective than me &#8211; being a young woman and all that. Fewer people would want to voluntarily spend time with me than you so I can&#8217;t really afford to be as picky as you are. You have the ability to reject quite a few people <em>and</em> still meet your social needs &#8211; this is a good thing. And the fact that you reject some people is a signal that you&#8217;re optimizing; some people are more interesting than others and you act accordingly. </p>
<p>We tend to have reasonably similar preferences regarding how we spend our off-hours, and so of course if people I happen to interact with aren&#8217;t actually any good at analytical thinking I&#8217;m unlikely to find social interaction with them very rewarding &#8211; but I don&#8217;t really feel like I need to risk rejecting people early on by probing a proxy (for critical thinking skills), as literally nobody ever approaches me first in the social game. Before one&#8217;s basic social needs are actually met I do not believe one is doing oneself any favours rejecting people. (Granted just figuring out what your social needs are can sometimes be a challenge &#8211; I know that for me it&#8217;s very easy to get used to a <em>very low</em> level of social interaction with others.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Moral event horizons by Miao</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/moral-event-horizons/#comment-6286</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 15:06:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12186#comment-6286</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Of course, I would like to add that being irreligious does not always imply an ability to think coherently (if anyone is in doubt regarding this, feel free to take a look at Reddit). But being religious almost always implies not being able to think coherently.

I would also like to mention that there are a few individuals in my current social group that fall into at least one of the three categories of insufferable people I mentioned in my first comment to this post. I stay in touch with them out of nostalgia or out of kinship. In the past I enjoyed very little access to intellectually like-minded people, and so I tended to be more tolerant of people&#039;s quirks. (I am sure many would say that the old me was significantly more likeable, since I was less judgmental.) Moving to Denmark has given me way more opportunities to interact with like-minded people, and so the incentive for me to make concessions has fallen sharply. These days when I interact with people whom I have known since the days before I arrived in Denmark, I try not to talk about topics like mind-body dualism, religion and etc. as much as possible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course, I would like to add that being irreligious does not always imply an ability to think coherently (if anyone is in doubt regarding this, feel free to take a look at Reddit). But being religious almost always implies not being able to think coherently.</p>
<p>I would also like to mention that there are a few individuals in my current social group that fall into at least one of the three categories of insufferable people I mentioned in my first comment to this post. I stay in touch with them out of nostalgia or out of kinship. In the past I enjoyed very little access to intellectually like-minded people, and so I tended to be more tolerant of people&#8217;s quirks. (I am sure many would say that the old me was significantly more likeable, since I was less judgmental.) Moving to Denmark has given me way more opportunities to interact with like-minded people, and so the incentive for me to make concessions has fallen sharply. These days when I interact with people whom I have known since the days before I arrived in Denmark, I try not to talk about topics like mind-body dualism, religion and etc. as much as possible.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Moral event horizons by Miao</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/moral-event-horizons/#comment-6285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 May 2013 14:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12186#comment-6285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I’ll think less of people who hold absurd beliefs if I happen to find out they hold such beliefs, but I won’t actively ask about that stuff, and as long as people don’t talk about them when I’m around I care little about what gods they may pray to when they lay scared in their beds, fearing death.&quot;

I think this is a very sensible approach, but I still would try to find a way to find out a person&#039;s religious and political beliefs upon first meeting them -- if I discover that they are highly irrational, then I would find a way to politely terminate the conversation. I would not seek to debate them, because, as you have already pointed out, it is often difficult to change people&#039;s minds regarding religion (or, I would like to add, any other issue on which one&#039;s stand is likely to be crucial to identity-formation).

The reason I do this is because I would like to know how much I can rely on a person&#039;s opinions in general when our conversation finally progresses beyond small talk. &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=losing-your-religion-analytic-thinking-can-undermine-belief&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Religious people are generally poor at analytical thinking&lt;/a&gt;. So if someone professes some sort of religious belief, I would minimise contact as much as possible. The alternative would be to engage only in small talk with this person -- and I find this a rather insufferable proposal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’ll think less of people who hold absurd beliefs if I happen to find out they hold such beliefs, but I won’t actively ask about that stuff, and as long as people don’t talk about them when I’m around I care little about what gods they may pray to when they lay scared in their beds, fearing death.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is a very sensible approach, but I still would try to find a way to find out a person&#8217;s religious and political beliefs upon first meeting them &#8212; if I discover that they are highly irrational, then I would find a way to politely terminate the conversation. I would not seek to debate them, because, as you have already pointed out, it is often difficult to change people&#8217;s minds regarding religion (or, I would like to add, any other issue on which one&#8217;s stand is likely to be crucial to identity-formation).</p>
<p>The reason I do this is because I would like to know how much I can rely on a person&#8217;s opinions in general when our conversation finally progresses beyond small talk. <a href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=losing-your-religion-analytic-thinking-can-undermine-belief" rel="nofollow">Religious people are generally poor at analytical thinking</a>. So if someone professes some sort of religious belief, I would minimise contact as much as possible. The alternative would be to engage only in small talk with this person &#8212; and I find this a rather insufferable proposal.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Minor change regarding comment policy by US</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/minor-change-of-comment-policy/#comment-6277</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[US]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2013 13:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12199#comment-6277</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s good news. So people who&#039;ve already commented can expect the policy change to have had no effect on them at all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s good news. So people who&#8217;ve already commented can expect the policy change to have had no effect on them at all.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Minor change regarding comment policy by Miao</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/minor-change-of-comment-policy/#comment-6276</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2013 12:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12199#comment-6276</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great -- it is automatically approved.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great &#8212; it is automatically approved.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Minor change regarding comment policy by Miao</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/minor-change-of-comment-policy/#comment-6275</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 May 2013 12:39:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12199#comment-6275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, this is a test.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this is a test.</p>
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		<title>Comment on On loneliness by Emil</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/06/on-loneliness/#comment-6265</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Emil]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 May 2013 03:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12116#comment-6265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Drinking aside, I mostly spend time with other people when I&#039;m cooking (because others are in the kitchen, and I often actively try to avoid them by eating at nonstandard times). Antisocial and living in a student dorm. :D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Drinking aside, I mostly spend time with other people when I&#8217;m cooking (because others are in the kitchen, and I often actively try to avoid them by eating at nonstandard times). Antisocial and living in a student dorm. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Moral event horizons by US</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/moral-event-horizons/#comment-6263</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[US]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 May 2013 20:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12186#comment-6263</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Thank you for the comment!)

We talked on Skype but it&#039;s useful to add stuff to the discussion here too. All the factors you mention are factors I also take into account when figuring out how desirable would be a potential social relationship with the other party. But I don&#039;t think any of them on their own would automatically lead to permanent rejection in my case.

However it must be said that your comment made me remember a specific type of behaviour not mentioned in the post which I also tend to punish severely; when people deny facts. This most often happens in political discussions where people find it particularly hard to separate is and ought (Razib Khan put it more bluntly in a comment recently; &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/05/open-thread-5122013/#.UZFQcsr6cWc&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;in politics the truth is determined by politics&lt;/a&gt;&quot; - to some extent this is true, which is yet another reason why I&#039;m not particularly keen on discussing such matters), and so as I generally try to stay clear of such discussions it&#039;s not often an issue; but sometimes I &lt;em&gt;will&lt;/em&gt; get into a political argument, and when that happens I most likely &lt;em&gt;will&lt;/em&gt; make statements which aim to clarify which tradeoffs are relevant in this political area - and if someone tells me I&#039;m wrong about which tradeoffs are relevant then they deny facts, and then that&#039;s a black mark which is hard to get off again. It&#039;s hard to get rid of also because as I consider it quite costly for me to engage in these discussions in the first place I as a general rule only do it when I feel that I&#039;m well enough informed about the matters at hand to actually have an opinion, and that bar is higher for me than for most people. (hypothetical: I read 40 papers on labour market policy because that was the curriculum for my labour economics course, and now I find myself talking to some guy who&#039;s ignoring what I&#039;m telling him about the relevant tradeoffs and issues in the field because he&#039;d obviously rather that the real world was different - well, screw him, unless there are extenuating circumstances that&#039;ll probably be the last time I talk to that guy. Not knowing what to think when presented with new data is fine, withholding judgment is fine, yes almost to be expected - but denying or ignoring facts is not fine, and if you persist after I call you out on that you need to be a brother or similar to not get a (very) black mark on your record).

You mention superstition and so I figured I should bring up religion. For many Danish people religious views will not come up in discussions unless one party in the discussion is particularly keen on bringing up that topic - it&#039;s not something people generally talk about, at least not people in my limited social sphere. In terms of how I approach such matters I&#039;ve become better at taking this factor into account than I used to be; by now I know that if I do not bring up this stuff people will generally not feel compelled to repeat the lies they have a hard enough time convincing themselves of. So it&#039;s not particularly hard to stay clear of this topic, and most of the time I&#039;ll think of that as the preferable outcome, especially considering the fact that you&#039;ll never change anybody&#039;s mind about these matters simply by discussing these matters with them (at least it&#039;s much too unlikely to be worth my time - especially considering that if they&#039;re that easy to talk &lt;em&gt;out of&lt;/em&gt; religion, well...). So the way it works is: I&#039;ll think less of people who hold absurd beliefs if I happen to find out they hold such beliefs, but I won&#039;t actively ask about that stuff, and as long as people don&#039;t talk about them when I&#039;m around I care little about what gods they may pray to when they lay scared in their beds, fearing death. However if they feel the need to talk about their gods when I&#039;m around, that is another black mark to add to the list - this is a good way to make me lose any desire to interact with you. And so it turns out that there&#039;s a moral event horizon which applies here as well; if I learn that someone is a priest, well, that is game over and you&#039;re not coming back from that. I hold similar views when it comes to the implicit permissibility of other superstitious beliefs; if he keeps quiet about it, it probably won&#039;t matter much - but if he doesn&#039;t that&#039;s a big problem, and if he makes a living off of that kind of crap then I&#039;m out, permanently.

(I should perhaps point out in view of your comment that exclaiming &#039;Jesus!&#039; or &#039;Oh my god!&#039; after having, say, stubbed your toe, is &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; what I mean by &#039;talk[ing] about their gods when I&#039;m around&#039; - and besides, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&amp;id=936#comic&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;if someone associates God with stubbing his toe then that person is probably on the right track&lt;/a&gt; anyway... :) )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Thank you for the comment!)</p>
<p>We talked on Skype but it&#8217;s useful to add stuff to the discussion here too. All the factors you mention are factors I also take into account when figuring out how desirable would be a potential social relationship with the other party. But I don&#8217;t think any of them on their own would automatically lead to permanent rejection in my case.</p>
<p>However it must be said that your comment made me remember a specific type of behaviour not mentioned in the post which I also tend to punish severely; when people deny facts. This most often happens in political discussions where people find it particularly hard to separate is and ought (Razib Khan put it more bluntly in a comment recently; &#8220;<a href="http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/05/open-thread-5122013/#.UZFQcsr6cWc" rel="nofollow">in politics the truth is determined by politics</a>&#8221; &#8211; to some extent this is true, which is yet another reason why I&#8217;m not particularly keen on discussing such matters), and so as I generally try to stay clear of such discussions it&#8217;s not often an issue; but sometimes I <em>will</em> get into a political argument, and when that happens I most likely <em>will</em> make statements which aim to clarify which tradeoffs are relevant in this political area &#8211; and if someone tells me I&#8217;m wrong about which tradeoffs are relevant then they deny facts, and then that&#8217;s a black mark which is hard to get off again. It&#8217;s hard to get rid of also because as I consider it quite costly for me to engage in these discussions in the first place I as a general rule only do it when I feel that I&#8217;m well enough informed about the matters at hand to actually have an opinion, and that bar is higher for me than for most people. (hypothetical: I read 40 papers on labour market policy because that was the curriculum for my labour economics course, and now I find myself talking to some guy who&#8217;s ignoring what I&#8217;m telling him about the relevant tradeoffs and issues in the field because he&#8217;d obviously rather that the real world was different &#8211; well, screw him, unless there are extenuating circumstances that&#8217;ll probably be the last time I talk to that guy. Not knowing what to think when presented with new data is fine, withholding judgment is fine, yes almost to be expected &#8211; but denying or ignoring facts is not fine, and if you persist after I call you out on that you need to be a brother or similar to not get a (very) black mark on your record).</p>
<p>You mention superstition and so I figured I should bring up religion. For many Danish people religious views will not come up in discussions unless one party in the discussion is particularly keen on bringing up that topic &#8211; it&#8217;s not something people generally talk about, at least not people in my limited social sphere. In terms of how I approach such matters I&#8217;ve become better at taking this factor into account than I used to be; by now I know that if I do not bring up this stuff people will generally not feel compelled to repeat the lies they have a hard enough time convincing themselves of. So it&#8217;s not particularly hard to stay clear of this topic, and most of the time I&#8217;ll think of that as the preferable outcome, especially considering the fact that you&#8217;ll never change anybody&#8217;s mind about these matters simply by discussing these matters with them (at least it&#8217;s much too unlikely to be worth my time &#8211; especially considering that if they&#8217;re that easy to talk <em>out of</em> religion, well&#8230;). So the way it works is: I&#8217;ll think less of people who hold absurd beliefs if I happen to find out they hold such beliefs, but I won&#8217;t actively ask about that stuff, and as long as people don&#8217;t talk about them when I&#8217;m around I care little about what gods they may pray to when they lay scared in their beds, fearing death. However if they feel the need to talk about their gods when I&#8217;m around, that is another black mark to add to the list &#8211; this is a good way to make me lose any desire to interact with you. And so it turns out that there&#8217;s a moral event horizon which applies here as well; if I learn that someone is a priest, well, that is game over and you&#8217;re not coming back from that. I hold similar views when it comes to the implicit permissibility of other superstitious beliefs; if he keeps quiet about it, it probably won&#8217;t matter much &#8211; but if he doesn&#8217;t that&#8217;s a big problem, and if he makes a living off of that kind of crap then I&#8217;m out, permanently.</p>
<p>(I should perhaps point out in view of your comment that exclaiming &#8216;Jesus!&#8217; or &#8216;Oh my god!&#8217; after having, say, stubbed your toe, is <em>not</em> what I mean by &#8216;talk[ing] about their gods when I&#8217;m around&#8217; &#8211; and besides, <a href="http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&amp;id=936#comic" rel="nofollow">if someone associates God with stubbing his toe then that person is probably on the right track</a> anyway&#8230; <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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		<title>Comment on Moral event horizons by Miao</title>
		<link>http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/moral-event-horizons/#comment-6262</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Miao]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 May 2013 19:57:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/?p=12186#comment-6262</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No doubt some will describe me as being overly judgmental after reading my list of criteria, but I consider them to be very useful for screening. Since I am highly introverted, I am very selective about whom I spend my time with.

1. If they profess a belief in any kind of superstition -- it ranges from astrology to Christianity to MBTI. Of course, it is reasonable question if I am being overly harsh for dismissing people who endorse MBTI -- after all, if they have heard of MBTI in the first place, they can&#039;t be *that* uneducated. However, I believe that it is highly probable that a person who approves of MBTI is someone who (a) lacks curiosity, or/and (b) does not care much about applying the tools of scientific inquiry to mainstream memes.

2. If they are politically correct -- it ranges from espousing third-wave feminism to saying something like &quot;I will *never* kill an innocent stranger for *any* amount of monetary reward&quot; to claiming that there is no difference in IQs among races.

3. If they take themselves too seriously -- for example, there are some hard-core atheists who would look askance at you when you exclaim &#039;Jesus!&#039; in exasperation. Interacting with them is just tiring.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No doubt some will describe me as being overly judgmental after reading my list of criteria, but I consider them to be very useful for screening. Since I am highly introverted, I am very selective about whom I spend my time with.</p>
<p>1. If they profess a belief in any kind of superstition &#8212; it ranges from astrology to Christianity to MBTI. Of course, it is reasonable question if I am being overly harsh for dismissing people who endorse MBTI &#8212; after all, if they have heard of MBTI in the first place, they can&#8217;t be *that* uneducated. However, I believe that it is highly probable that a person who approves of MBTI is someone who (a) lacks curiosity, or/and (b) does not care much about applying the tools of scientific inquiry to mainstream memes.</p>
<p>2. If they are politically correct &#8212; it ranges from espousing third-wave feminism to saying something like &#8220;I will *never* kill an innocent stranger for *any* amount of monetary reward&#8221; to claiming that there is no difference in IQs among races.</p>
<p>3. If they take themselves too seriously &#8212; for example, there are some hard-core atheists who would look askance at you when you exclaim &#8216;Jesus!&#8217; in exasperation. Interacting with them is just tiring.</p>
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